[EAS] FW: [EAS-WA] [SECC-WA] FEMA records show Kerr County didn't alert all cell phone s as flooding began

Mon Jul 14 15:45:45 CDT 2025

FYI -

Nice to see the folks here are using this incident in a positive way

Clay

From: k7cr at blarg.net k7cr at avvanta.com> 
Cc: 'Steve Jantz' pv.jantz at gmail.com>; 'Dixon, Maximilian (MIL)' Maximilian.Dixon at mil.wa.gov>; 'Peck, Steve (DSHS/ALTSA/ODHH)' steven.peck at dshs.wa.gov>

Thanks Scott

Excellent Points -

Perhaps the folks in Texas never thought of how the Pacific Ocean could 'Flood' also ?

Clay

(Retired from EAS, but still have my ear to the ground) 

From: Scott McDougall smcdougall at co.pacific.wa.us mailto:smcdougall at co.pacific.wa.us> > 
Cc: Steve Jantz pv.jantz at gmail.com mailto:pv.jantz at gmail.com> >; Dixon, Maximilian (MIL) Maximilian.Dixon at mil.wa.gov mailto:Maximilian.Dixon at mil.wa.gov> >; Peck, Steve (DSHS/ALTSA/ODHH) steven.peck at dshs.wa.gov mailto:steven.peck at dshs.wa.gov> >

Good afternoon all,

Jim's point about the siren towers not being accessible is spot on and very well taken, but I would like to add some additional thoughts to the conversation. I think we are underestimating the extent of the issue. In Pacific County, we have 25 siren towers. The intent is for those towers to be outdoor warning devices,  each one providing a warning for people in a 1 mile radius. In our county we have a number of towers that are not easily visible, even if we had better lighting options. The vast majority of the people who are to be alerted by each siren, will never see any of the sirens. Therefore, I think it is important to begin considering something in addition to making visible warnings on the siren towers. 

We need to develop a plan for making visible warning devices in the places where the people are, not just at the towers, which may be away from the places where people gather. I support making the towers more visible, but we need to do more than that. Let us consider the recent Independence Day Holiday. Conservative estimates place 50-75,000 people on the beach between Seaview and Leadbetter Point. NONE of the 25 Sirens in our county are visible from that beach area. They are audible from the beach and they will provide an audible warning to get people off the beach, but the question here is how do we provide a visual warning to people to get off the beach. As illustrated above, putting a visible warning on the towers provides only a very limited benefit. We must find a way to put the visible warning where the people actually need to be warned.

Scott McDougall, NEMAA

KG7NNP

Director

Pacific County Emergency Management Agency

PO Box 1143, South Bend, WA 98586

360-875-9338 Office ~ 360-214-1046 Cell 

 http://www.pcema.info> www.pcema.info

 "Do all the good you can, in all the ways you can, to all the souls you can, in every place you can, at all the times you can, with all the zeal you can, as long as ever you can." John Wesley

From: EAS-WA eas-wa-bounces at sea.sbe16.org mailto:eas-wa-bounces at sea.sbe16.org> > On Behalf Of House, Jim (DSHS/WASILC) via EAS-WA
Cc: Steve Jantz pv.jantz at gmail.com mailto:pv.jantz at gmail.com> >; Dixon, Maximilian (MIL) Maximilian.Dixon at mil.wa.gov mailto:Maximilian.Dixon at mil.wa.gov> >; Peck, Steve (DSHS/ALTSA/ODHH) steven.peck at dshs.wa.gov mailto:steven.peck at dshs.wa.gov> >

Hello everyone,

Great discussion. I am sure there were several factors at play here.

I need to bring up an accessibility issue with the siren towers.  We use the same technology on the coast for tsunami warnings, and in Pierce County for lahar warnings, and maybe other areas.

The biggest issue for Washington, those siren towers is not accessible for people who are deaf or hard of hearing simply because the siren towers generally have no strobe lights.  If they do, they are placed way at the top of the tower and difficult to see when the sun is out.

Here is a link to a report I wrote following the installation of a strobe light at a tower in Ocean Shores.  Steve Peck from the Office of the Deaf and Hard of Hearing (ODHH), PV Jantz from FEMA (at the time), and myself met with Maximillan Dixon from EMD, evaluated the installation, and provided suggestions for improvements.  This Tsunami Alert Accessibility Evaluation https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/5e20bef357d90e4e47de7965/673670322400bb6c07ec541b_Tsunami%20Alert%20Accessibility%20Evaluation.pdf>  report from last year provides more details on accessibility considerations for those with Access and Functional Needs. 

Incidents such as the Texas Floods give us opportunities to see what worked and what did not work, so that we can build back better and more accessible.

Jim

Jim 

Promoting the Independent Living Philosophy

Jim House (he/him/his) | Disability/AFN Integration Manager

Coalition on Inclusive Emergency Planning (CIEP)

EMAIL:  mailto:Jim.House at dshs.wa.gov> Jim.House at dshs.wa.gov 

PHONE:  360.339.7435 (Voice/Video) CELL:  360.338.5114 (Text)

WEB:  https://www.wasilc.org/coalition-on-inclusive-emergency-planning> Coalition on Inclusive Emergency Planning (CIEP) (wasilc.org)

CIEP ALERT BACK ISSUES:  https://www.wasilc.org/newsletter> WASILC & CIEP Newsletters

FACEBOOK:  https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100066775790374> Coalition on Inclusive Emergency Planning 

WASILC:  https://www.wasilc.org/> Washington Statewide Independent Living Council

From: EAS-WA eas-wa-bounces at sea.sbe16.org mailto:eas-wa-bounces at sea.sbe16.org> > On Behalf Of Ted buehner via EAS-WA

External Email

Good discussion as we now are more than a week beyond this tragic flash flood event with nearly 130 fatalities and well over 100 still missing.  

For those who did not catch this story on mynorthwest.com, the focus was on lessons from this event that can be applied in Western Washington and beyond.  

https://mynorthwest.com/pacific-northwest-weather/texas-flash-flood/4107422  

During last weeks Washington SECC meeting, we spent time discussing the Texas (and NM, SC, and Chicago) flash flood events. Good discussion there.  

I saw Katy Tur on MSNBC twice last week have a segment addressing NWR as a key warning reception tool. One guest actually demonstrated a weather radio live on air including airing a warning alarm test from the unit to show its effectiveness to alert those sleeping to the incoming short-fused warning.  

On Tuesday last week, I was a guest on KCPQ - Fox-13, live in studio and did the same thing, discussing NWR as a life-saver for the cost of a pair of shoes.  

For the record, outdoor sirens serve just that - outdoors. NWR is an indoor warning system. This point is emphasized along the tsunami threatened coastal areas of Western Washington.  

In the wake of the 1987 Guadalupe River flash flood that happened to be the highest river gauge reading ever (this recent event was #2), one of the after action items was to enhance NWR reception in the river valley. A new NWR transmitter was placed to cover the valley.  

On the early morning of July 4th, the flash flood warnings activated EAS and NWR weather radio receivers in the region would 'wake up' with that warning alarm blaring.  

In Texas, there is discussion about the state funding outdoor siren systems down the valley - yes, one good warning reception tool. Yet, as locals noted when the idea was raised many times earlier, they are too expensive and need constant maintenance.  

Thousands of weather radios to all in the valley would be far less expensive and have a greater chance of being effective as long as they are used including replacing their batteries on a routine basis. There are also attachments for the deaf and hard of hearing such as strobe lights and pillow shakers.  

The combination of outdoor sirens, NWR, and WEA (smart phone alerts), together with radio, TV and cable coverage of the event would really enhance warning notification. Social media would also help spread the word once the warning messages are received. 

The bottom line is and as explained in the mynorthwest.com story, the warning system is a 3-legged stool. One leg - detection and warning of the event, the second leg - dissemination of the warning to the geo-targeted area, and finally, response - once the warning is received to take action to save lives and property.  

It was that last leg that failed in this tragic event and as a result, the 3-legged stool fell over - failed. The warning system needs to work in concert to have an effective process. That process is what we continue to work on in Washington state.  

Ted Buehner 

Chair - Washington SECC 

On 07/12/2025 3:24 PM PDT k7cr--- via EAS-WA via SECC-WA secc-wa at sea.sbe16.org mailto:secc-wa at sea.sbe16.org> > wrote: 

I have read that the county did not utilize IPAWS to warn.   

Certainly there is going to be a lot of finger pointing, hopefully the investigation will be as thorough as the NTSB does with a plane crash.

As with events like this in the past, by hope is that we (WA-State) will learn from the mistakes of others to help insure that it does not happen here !

Clay

From: SECC-WA secc-wa-bounces at sea.sbe16.org mailto:secc-wa-bounces at sea.sbe16.org> > On Behalf Of Edmund Leavitt via EAS-WA via SECC-WA

Clay,

Early in the finger pointing frenzy we heard that cellphone coverage in that area is "spotty".  Unlike cellphone telephony, NWR's Specific Area Message Encoding (S.A.M.E.) radio uses VHF and has entirely different propagation characteristics.   

I found myself wondering about the NWR's coverage in Kerr County.   I found a coverage map (below) that satisfied my curiosity.     

We have two 

 Sometimes the older technology is a better choice.

______________________________________________________________________

Edmund Leavitt  K7EFL / NNA0EL / WRQF568  10TET3629122233 

___________________________________________________________________

---------- Original Message ----------
From: k7cr--- via EAS-WA eas-wa at sea.sbe16.org mailto:eas-wa at sea.sbe16.org> >

Interesting discussion on the SBE EAS Remailer -  

Clay Freinwald

From: Rob Dale rdale at skywatch.org mailto:rdale at skywatch.org> > 

Great points all around! But to clarify - MANY of the stories I've read mentioned NWR. Every interview I did last week had "layers save lives" in it for a reason :)

On the other hand - EMs are losing our grants for NOAA Weather Radios. The FY25 rollout should have started a long time ago and FEMA is still "radio silent" on them, and the overall dollar amount continues to dwindle.

The general public might want a NWR as a backup, but their inability to alert based on your location is a negative. Hopefully in the next 10-20 years they will add the ability to recognize its spot.

Rob

On Jul 12, 2025, at 2:11 PM, Adrienne Abbott nevadaeas at charter.net mailto:nevadaeas at charter.net> > wrote:

It doesn't matter if you have the best warning systems in the world if nobody has a way of receiving that information. I get that people want to escape their cell phones, TVs and radios. But Texas is subject to more weather disasters than flash floods. They get hurricanes and tornadoes, too,  which could have been just as damaging as this flash flood. Still, there's no excuse for the operators of any campground, and especially a children's campground not to have a properly programmed and set up NOAA Weather Radio in alert mode 24/7. It's the only device that can sit on a shelf in "off" mode that's still going to receive alerts from the National Weather Service and make obnoxious noises at oh-dark-hundred to wake you up and save you and your campers. Kids should not have to be awakened by water seeping into their sleeping bags and then trying to escape their flooded cabins. 

Too bad the reporters covering this story don't know about NOAA Weather Radios, or the grants available to emergency managers to purchase them and hand them out to schools, hospitals, senior citizen centers, and other vulnerable facilities. FEMA and the National Weather Service should be pushing for emergency managers to apply for these grants. And they should be working with NAB and the FCC for a media campaign for the general public to have these radios. 

Adrienne

Adrienne Abbott, W6BCY

Nevada EAS Chair, Emeritus

"Radio burps, it cries, it needs to be fed all the time, it requires constant attention, but we love it." Jim Aaron WGLN 

From: Rob Dale 

Good info! Those are all reasons we say "layers save lives"...

For #1 - satellite delivery of WEA is being tested for areas without a cell signal, and should be rolled out next year. But those locations have Wifi so they still would get alerted.

For #2 - if you're in an area where severe weather is expected after dark, our messaging reminds people to charge their phones during the day and leave them charging in their bedrooms at night.

For #3 - WEA will override vibration / silent / nighttime settings and screech the tone as long as it's on.

For #4 - I have Amber Alerts turned off too. Texas has the highest percentage of WEA opt-outs in large part due to their abuse of the system. The DPS and DOT both send out alerts that shouldn't be sent out via WEA or to the entire state. We can't fix that ?

Rob

  _____  

From: Ty Rosenow rosenow at gmail.com mailto:rosenow at gmail.com> >

There's various issues with being able to contact people and not being able to receive the alerts:

1. No signal - Depending on your provider, you might not be able to receive any digital signals through data and/or voice with drop outs between the cell tower and the phone user. Let me give you an example, when I was at Klamath Falls, OR over the Memorial Day weekend, if I went 10 miles outside the city, I would lose phone signal no matter the direction. I wouldn't have been alerted even if there was one. Eventually, this could be corrected with the satellite phone capabilities of my particular cell phone company. 

2. Phones are turned off. I am a weird person to where I turn off my phone while it charges or if I have no signal as it eats up battery power. I also place my phone in the other room so I can pay attention to sleeping. Not all of us are married to our devices like the broadcast engineers are. 

3. Most people have their phones on vibrate with no audio signal. You're in bed and some of us are deep sleepers and some of us are light sleepers, so it's not always easily heard. The reason why people put their phones on vibrate is because of the large amount of spam phone calls and text messages they receive in which they ignore. How many of us don't answer our cell phones if we don't recognize the incoming number/ID? Which runs into #4.

4. The "Boy Who Cried Wolf" theory (don't worry, I will spare you the story). It's good to test equipment (whether the EAS system, fire alarms, etc). But there is such a thing in overdoing it. Right now, we have been saturated with alerts since EAS has began. You have NWS, Amber, Silver, and at least in Washington State, Missing Indigenous Women alerts. Me, I choose to have the Amber Alerts turned off because I am tired of looking out for children or when I am off the road like working or I am at home. Due to too many alerts, I have seen people ignore fire alarms (except at home) and even walk around outside in the middle of tornado that's about 5-10 miles away. In our homes, we have smoke alarms that we hear, check, and then evacuate if we can. How often do we test our smoke alarms? Twice a year (and sometimes when we're cooking). 

You're not going to save everyone when it comes to alerts, but if you save at least one life, then it worked. 

Ty Rosenow

On Fri, Jul 11, 2025, 09:06 Rob Dale rdale at skywatch.org mailto:rdale at skywatch.org> > wrote:

The NWS alerts are great but are a generic template. That's why we train locals to supplement that info with WEAs and potentially EAS messages that include evacuation guidelines, routes, roads to avoid, areas to shelter, etc.

Rob

On Jul 11, 2025, at 11:53 AM, Don Kinney don at globaleas.org mailto:don at globaleas.org> > wrote:

They sure do help. 

Blame also cannot be put entirely on Kerr county in this situation. I believe most NWS phone alerts, especially with new extended length, do give a basic "call-to-action", telling those that received the alert to seek higher ground. 

Regardless of if the phone alerts do or not, EAS and NWS radio messages do for sure have this messaging.

It's unfortunate that people do not pay attention to the content of these alerts as much as they should.

Get Outlook for iOS https://aka.ms/o0ukef> 

  _____  

From: Sean P. Glennon glennonsean at startmail.com mailto:glennonsean at startmail.com> >

[You don't often get email from glennonsean at startmail.com mailto:glennonsean at startmail.com> . Learn why this is important at https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification ]

This is why I give NOAA weather alert radios with SAME as Christmas
gifts. Redundancy saves lives.

On 7/11/25 11:40, Sean Donelan wrote:
>
> Deja Vu, it seems like every state's emergency officials need to learn
> the same lessons every disaster.  They never learn lessons from the
> experience in other states.  While all disasters may be local,
> resources are not equally  distributed.  Yet politicians seem to use
> the same talking points why lack of prepardness is not their fault.
>
> "FEMA records obtained by NBC 5 Investigates show that Kerr County
> officials did not use FEMA's Integrated Public Alert & Warning System
> to send warnings with safety instructions to all mobile phones in the
> affected area during critical hours as the flooding began on July 4."
>
> [...]
> "The FEMA message archive shows that as the water began rising in Kerr
> County on July 4, the National Weather Service sent an IPAWS flood
> warning to cell phones as early as 1:14 a.m."
>
> "However, weather service forecasters cannot issue instructions on
> whether to evacuate or wait for rescue; those messages are up to
> county or city officials."
> [...]
>
>

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