[BC] Re: wind farms

[Robert Meuser]

Yes, this is an interesting trade off.  We are not as much creating 
alternative energy, at least in the short term, as we are transferring 
the form the energy is in. Basically all energy originates from the sun; 
it is just we have discovered various solar energy collectors over 
history. I guess we need to get as much electric capacity as possible 
using every possible method,  wind, water,tidal,geothermal,solar, coal 
and nuclear. With such a resource we can take that electricity and use 
it as the energy source to create other fuels such as hydrogen which 
might fuel farm vehicles involved in ethanol production. Those new fuels 
may well just really be a conversion of the form of energy as in some 
cases there are those who claim more energy goes into the creation of 
some fuels than those fuels give back.  The same has been said about the 
production of various types of batteries. If we start with the right 
energy sources - those totally under our control both renewable and non 
renewable - than we can create fuels that deliver this energy in a more 
practical form for vehicles, boats, aircraft, etc. This might even be if 
it took more energy to create the fuel than the fuel produces. What 
counts is the source of  the original energy.  One example might be to 
supply enough electric power to hydrogen stations of the future so all 
they need to have available is water that they can break down on demand 
to rather than transport and store hydrogen.

I saw an interesting proposal from Australia awhile back.  Someone 
proposed building what was in effect a giant 2000 foot high chimney in 
the desert there. At the bottom would be acres of basically heat 
collectors. The principle is that the temperature differential from 
bottom to top creates a massive wind up the chimney which would drive 
turbines inside. There was a formula to determine the amount of power 
possible based on temperature differential and volume Apparently a 
working model of a much smaller scale turns out 50 KW worth of power all 
day and night. I thought this was very interesting. It also occurred to 
me that in our great Southwest we have the same potential that could be 
built at much lower cost. Take an input from the hot desert floor and 
hollow out the center of a 10 or 12,000 foot mountain (even a 5000 foot 
one). There are many places where the necessary geography exists. I am 
sure the National Parks service would not be impressed, but I wonder how 
many steady megawatts you could pull out of Death Valley? It would 
conveniently produce more power  in the summer than in winter.

R

r j carpenter wrote:

> Like all Good Things, wind farms do have a large front-end cost in 
> terms of the energy required to manufacture and install the wind 
> turbines. I once saw a comparison of the energy-cost of creating 
> various "renewable energy" sources and the number of years of 
> operation before there was a net gain.  IIRC, hydro dams were the worst.
>
> I once heard a talk by N6NB who had gone to great lengths to build his 
> ideal mountaintop ham shack miles from anywhere. He finally moves in, 
> installs his gear and starts to listen.  There was a din of RFI from 
> one direction.  You guessed it, a large wind turbine farm some miles 
> away in that direction.
>
> Back when I was doing radio propagation field stations, I had the 
> nightmare that we'd get everything ready to operate and then discover 
> that the Electric Welding and Arc Light Institute of America was 
> located nearby. Just a bad dream, fortunately.
>
> As for the pumped water energy storage schemes, back when I was in 
> college I think that one in Connecticut was mentioned. That was long ago.
>
> bob
>
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