[BC] Sangean HD component tuner and Infusion portable Internet radio

[Glen Kippel]

Oh, indeed.  I second Dana's comments on peak limiting.  Dynamic range gives
the audio some "life" and what is needed for high TSL (besides decent
programming!) is low distortion.  Distortion is just another form of
interference, which makes the perceived audio LESS loud.  Some very slow
gain-riding is necessary to overcome ambient (acoustic) noise levels, as he
said, but I can't see using more than 3 dB or so of peak limiting and maybe
a dB of composite clipping.  Note:  if your composite clipper's LED's are
lighting to full brilliance, that is TOO MUCH clipping!  No wonder composite
clipping got such a bad rap...

On 12/20/06, Dana Puopolo <dpuopolo at usa.net> wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> I used to be CE of a beautiful music station with an 18 share. We did not
> have
> to run the processing "wide open". We used an Optimod 8000A with a
> Compellor
> in front of it set for a minumum of processing. We used a composite STL
> with a
> MSI clipper set only to get overshoots in the STL. Every piece of
> equipment
> was tweaked for the ultimate possible quality. We probably had the first
> 100%
> transformerless radio station in the country. Paul Temple, Grady Moates
> and
> myself all made sure that EVERYTHING was always 100% "on spec". The reason
> we
> used any processing at all was because in cars we needed our average
> modulation to be high enough to overcome road noise.
>
> We were perhaps 3 db less loud then the loudest station on the dial there,
> WPRO-FM. 3 measly db. Pro-FM NEVER 'jumped' out at you when switching
> between
> stations. They were louder, but square waves always are (they were proud
> of
> the fact that they cranked the level into the safety clippers on their
> 8100 up
> 3 db). They sounded like CRUD, had less then HALF our numbers, and while
> their
> cume was good, their AQH sucked!
>
> The notion that someone should take a medium that has perhaps 80 db of
> dynamic
> range and compress and limit it until is runs within a couple db of the
> CRUSHED main channel is preposterous! Why bother HAVING all that range if
> you're not going to take some advantage of it?  The one GOOD thing I've
> heard
> from FM HD is the lack of noise. To me at least, peak limting (and
> clipping)
> does the most damage to audio of anything. Or do people buy 100 watt per
> channel amps for nothing? TRANSIENTS perhaps more then anything are what
> adds
> to the realism of music!
>
> Yes, cutting peak limiting back from perhaps 6-10 db to five will make
> things
> have more 'punch'. BUT...eliminating it all together will make it even
> punchier! Not to mention that conceptual coding algorithyms work best with
> uncompressed audio as their source.
>
> Now, I understand how look ahead limiting works - and it's a good
> invention
> and innovation...BUT just like any good thing, it can be overused. 5 db of
> any
> limiting in a medium with a wide dymanic range like HD is about 4 db too
> much!
>
> The bottom line is this: I have heard all the HD stations in three major
> markets at length (NYC, Philadelphia and Boston). With a few standout
> exceptions, most HD audio sounds unimpressive. Why? BECAUSE of the
> processing!!  There's no "WOW!" factor!
>
> AND...In the case of the standout stations, EVERY ONE is a few db softer
> then
> their analog main channels. Secondaries too. I'm talking about audio that
> sounds noticeably BETTER then the main analog channel. Who cares if I have
> to
> turn the radio up a bit? I'd do it anyway, because the music DRAWS ME IN
> when
> it sounds really good, instead of pushing me away, as crushed, clipped
> analog
> FM does.
>
> If we are going to claim 'CD like audio' for HD FM radio, we'd better
> deliver
> - and the crushed, limited MESS I hear on most stations just doesn't cut
> it!
>
> -D
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> Received: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 09:15:31 PM EST
> From: Robert Orban <rorban at earthlink.net>
> To: "Broadcasters' Mailing List" <broadcast at radiolists.net>
> Subject: Re: [BC] Sangean HD component tuner and Infusion
> portable        Internet
> radio
>
> At 04:50 PM 12/20/2006, Dana Puopolo wrote:
> >Bob,
> >
> >Why would anyone employ peak limiting or any kind of aggressive
> processing
> on
> >HD? It makes absolutely no sense! Run the gain down 8-10 db and keep the
> peak
> >limiting OFF!
>
> If you did this on the HD1 channel, the crossfade between the analog and
> digital channels would cause the digital channel loudness to drop
> dramatically and annoyingly and the analog channel to blast at the
> listener
> who had just readjusted her volume control for the digital channel.
>
> If you're talking about an HD2 channel, maintaining approximate loudness
> parity between the HD1 and HD2 channels avoids annoying volume changes
> when
> the consumer switches between channels. Having a station "blast" at you is
> particularly annoying. We know this from experience with television, where
> commercials that are significantly louder than program material have
> generated spontaneous consumer complaints to the FCC as early as the
> 1950s.
> "Joe Sixpack" prefers comfortably consistent program loudness and does
> *not* want to have to constantly fiddle with his volume control.
>
> Fortunately, the amount of digital-channel peak limiting required to
> maintain parity between the analog and digital channels is not very large.
> If you use a good look-ahead technology, you will hear no overt artifacts
> and only the slightest loss of transient punch compared to the source. To
> put this in perspective, the amount of digital channel peak limiting
> required to achieve analog/digital loudness parity is significantly less
> than the amount of peak limiting routinely applied to today's CD releases
> in mastering.
>
> Bob Orban
>
>
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